Culture

The following conversation between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and some of his disciples took place on an early-morning walk in January 1974 at Venice Beach, California.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, here in California the divorce rate is nearly 50%. Why do you think that is so?

Srila Prabhupada: In India there is a saying that he who is married laments and he who is not married also laments. The married man laments, “Why did I marry? I could have remained free.” And he who is not married laments, “Oh, why didn’t I accept a wife? I would have been happy.” [Laughter.] By sex one begets a child, and as soon as there is a child there is suffering. The child suffers, and the parents also suffer to take care of him. But again they have another child. Therefore it is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam [7.9.45], tripyanti neha kripana bahu-duhkha-bhajah. In connection with this child-producing there is so much difficulty and trouble, but although one knows that, one again does the same thing.

Sex is the main happiness in this material world. That is the main happiness, and it is very abominable. What is this happiness? Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham. It is like the rubbing of two hands together to relieve an itch. Sex produces so many bad results, but still one is not satisfied. Now there are contraceptives, abortion-so many things. Maya [illusion] is so strong; she says, “Yes, do this and be implicated.”

Therefore the Bhagavatam says, kandutivan manasijam vishaheta dhirah. A man who is dhira, sober and sane, tolerates this itching sensation of sex desire. One who can tolerate the itching sensation saves so much trouble, but one who cannot is immediately implicated. Whether illicit or legitimate, sex is trouble.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, this is the first time we’ve walked this way. Everything looks different and new.

Srila Prabhupada: [Laughs.] This is material life. We are wandering sometimes this way, sometimes that way, and we are thinking, “Oh, this is new.” Brahmanda bhramite: we are wandering all over the universe trying to find out something new. But nothing is new: everything is old.

When a man becomes old, he generally thinks, “Oh, this life is so troublesome.” So he is allowed to change to a new body, a child’s body. The child is taken care of, and he thinks, “Now I’ve got such a comfortable life.” But again he becomes old and disgusted. So, Krishna is so kind: “All right,” He says, “change your body.” This is punah punash carvita-carvananam, chewing the chewed. Krishna gives the living entity many facilities: “All right, become a tree. All right, become a serpent. All right, become a demigod. All right, become a king. Become a cobbler. Go to the heavenly planets. Go to the hellish planets.” There are so many varieties of life, but in all of them the living entity is packed up in this material world. He’s looking for freedom, but he does not know that freedom is available only under the shelter of Krishna. That he will not accept.

Seeing the suffering in this material world, the Mayavadis [impersonalists] want to make life variety-less (nirvishesha) and the Buddhists want to make it zero (shunyavadi). But neither proposition is possible. You may remain variety-less for some time, but again you will want varieties. Big, big sannyasis [renunciants] preach so much about brahma satyam jagan mithya [”The impersonal Absolute is true; this universe is false”], but again they come down from Brahman to do political and social work. They cannot remain in Brahman for long, so they have to accept this material variety, because variety is the mother of enjoyment. Therefore, our proposition is this: Come to the real variety, Krishna consciousness. Then your life will be successful.

Devotee: Most people are trying to enjoy so much in this life that they don’t even think about the next life.

Srila Prabhupada: They do not know what the next life is, so they make it zero. They say, “There is no next life,” and in that way they are satisfied. When a rabbit sees some danger it closes its eyes and thinks there is no danger. These rascals are like that. It is all ignorance.

Devotee: There is a philosophy called stoicism, which says that since life is meant for suffering, one should just become very sturdy and suffer a great deal.

Srila Prabhupada: So, their idea is that one who can suffer without any protest—he is a first- class man. Believing in such a philosophy means that one does not know how to stop suffering. One class of philosophers says that suffering cannot be dismissed and therefore we must be strong to tolerate it. And another class of philosophers says that since life is full of suffering, we should make life zero. But neither class has any information that there is real life where there is no suffering. That is Krishna consciousness. There is life, but no suffering. Anandamayo ‘bhyasat: simply bliss. Dancing, eating, and chanting, with no suffering. Would anybody refuse that? Is there any such fool?

Devotee: People deny that such a life exists.

Srila Prabhupada: But suppose there is such a life, where you can simply dance, eat, and live happily for eternity. Would you not like to accept it?

Devotee: Anyone would like to accept it. But people think it doesn’t exist.

Srila Prabhupada: So our first proposition should be that there is a life like this—only happiness, with no suffering. Everyone will say, “Yes, I would like it.” They will accept it. Unfortunately, because people have been cheated again and again, they think that this is another cheating. Therefore, preaching Krishna consciousness means to convince people that there is a life full of happiness, with no suffering.

Devotee: What will convince them that we are not cheating, also?

Srila Prabhupada: Invite them to come to our temple and see our devotees. We are chanting, dancing, and eating nicely. This is practical proof.

Devotee: But doesn’t one have to be purified before one can realize these things?

Srila Prabhupada: No. We say, “Come and chant Hare Krishna with us; you’ll become purified. We don’t want anything from you. We shall give you food—we shall give you everything. Simply come and chant with us.” This is our message.

Kimberly picks up a tape by a rock band known for its satanic image and clicks it into her Walkman. Putting on the earphones, she turns the volume way up.

“Maybe I was just made evil,” says Kimberly to herself. That leads to another thought. “Maybe some people are made good. Like Heather. Everything always seems to go right for Heather. God seems to like her.”

Kimberly’s not a theologian, but she’s contemplating something that Western theologians have discussed for centuries without reaching any definite conclusions. The question is this: Does God choose certain individuals or groups for salvation? In other words, are there chosen people? And, alternatively, are certain persons selected for condemnation?

The technical term for the matter under discussion is predestination, a word which implies that our final destination, be it heaven or hell, is programmed into our souls from the beginning of our existence. Thus the question of predestination is closely connected with the concept of free will.

A lot has been spoken and written about all this, but most of it is highly speculative. Not surprisingly, many of the views expressed contradict each other.

Speaking of the Judeo-Christian tradition, C. T. McIntyre writes in his article on predestination in The Encyclopedia of Religion, “Advocates of all positions have appealed to the scriptures, although the scriptures do not contain doctrines of free will and predestination, nor even these words.”

It would be too bad, however, if we had to rely on theological speculators to answer such questions. It’s hard to trust them, because the human mind is so limited and prone to error. That’s why God gives scriptures in the first place.

According to the sages of India. God has given different scriptures to different people at different times and places according to their level of understanding. Some scriptures therefore give more information than others. The Bible and the Koran, for example, give only very limited information about the soul and the important questions of free will and predestination. The Vedic scriptures of India, however, give more detailed information, which will help us examine these questions without going off into the insecure realm of imagination and speculation.

The basic message of Vedic literature on the question of predestination is that the choosing is done by the individual soul and not by God. We are choosing people, not chosen people.

God says He is neutral. In Bhagavad-gita (9.29), Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, says, “I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all.” We could say that God is the original equal opportunity employer.

Yet Krishna goes on to state in that same passage of the Gita, “But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him.” God exhibits no special favoritism to any particular person or group. But if someone voluntarily behaves in a friendly way toward Him. He responds in kind.

Now one might object: “Ha! So if you’re not friendly to God, then He zaps you, right? That’s not very cool.” But no, you zap yourself, so to speak.

The Vedanta-sutra (2.1.34) says vaishamya- nairghrinye na sapekshatvat tatha hi darshayati: The Lord neither hates nor likes anyone, though He appears to.” He surely does appear to, one might be tempted to say.

The reason God appears to hate one person and like another is related to the fact that He arranges to fulfill the desires of each individual, giving each his or her justly deserved reward or punishment A perverted desire yields a bad result A good desire yields a good result. Mixed desires yield mixed results. Because the results come by God’s arrangement it looks like He is to blame. But He’s not really.

Consider the example of a judge. One person comes before the judge and receives an award of a million dollars in a lawsuit against an insurance company. Another person comes before the judge and is sentenced to ten years in prison for fraud. The judge is responsible for neither the award of a million dollars nor the ten-year prison sentence. The law is there, and in the final analysis the persons who come before the judge have by their own behavior determined the results they will receive. The judge is neutral—at least he should be.

One difficulty with the suggestion that God is fulfilling our desires is that we do not appear to always get from God what we consciously want. If I want a million dollars, then why don’t I get it? Right away!

The reason is that the results of our desires and activities accumulate over the course of many lifetimes, as we take on one material body after another. If in a past life we unlawfully deprived others of wealth, we may now have to suffer for that by having unfulfilled desires for riches. In other words, what we desire is weighed against what we deserve.

Another consideration is that the desire to get rich quick by demanding large amounts of cash from God is a perverted desire. Our desires are evaluated according to a standard not of our own making. And it is according to that standard, whatever it may be. that the results of the specific desires are calculated. Maybe those results will match up with our expectations, and maybe they won’t. But as the Bhagavad-gita teaches, whatever we get is exactly what we deserve, which might be the pain of poverty, or a struggling middle-class existence, or being rich but not rich enough.

So to sum up. God sets up the system but is not responsible for what we get. The responsibility lies squarely with each one of us. As Krishna says in the Gita (4.13), “Although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer.” He also says in the Gita (9.9), “I am ever detached from all these material activities, seated as though neutral.” And in Chapter Thirteen He says, The living entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world.”

Now, if you want to criticize God for setting up the system as He did (so that we get bad results for certain desires and actions), you can. But it really doesn’t do much good. Srila Prabhupada says it well in his purport to Srimad- Bhagavatam 7.2.39:

The Lord does not create this material world at anyone’s request …If one argues. “Why does He act in this way?” the answer is that He can do so because He is supreme… .The answer is that to prove His omnipotence He can do anything, and no one can question Him. If He were answerable to us concerning why He does something and why He does not. His supremacy would be curtailed.

Certain people will be satisfied with a statement like this; others will feel extreme dissatisfaction, even repulsion. Here we are getting to the heart of the whole question.

By nature we are capable of liking God or disliking Him, of obeying His orders or disobeying them. More accurately, according to the Vedas our natural position is to serve God with love; and if we so desire we can give up that position and attempt to serve our own selfish desires.

The Vedic literature gives reliable information about the fundamental nature of the living being. The Vishnu Purana states:

vishnu-shaktih para prokta
kshetrajnakhya tatha para
avidya-karma-samjnanya
tritiya shaktir ishyate

“The potency of Lord Vishnu is summarized in three categories, namely the spiritual potency, the living entities, and ignorance. The spiritual potency is full of knowledge; the living entities, although belonging to the spiritual potency, are subject to bewilderment; and the third energy, which is full of ignorance, is always visible in fruitive activities.”

In other words, God has three main energies: the spiritual energy, the energy composed of the innumerable living entities, or souls, and the material energy. The living entities are known as the tatastha-shakti, or the marginal potency of the Lord, because they have the ability to identify with either matter or spirit to exist in full knowledge or in total illusion.

By nature, however, the soul belongs to the spiritual potency. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (15.7), wherein Lord Krishna says, mamaivamsho jiva-loke jiva- bhutah sanatanah: “The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts.”

We have always been around. As God has always existed, we have always existed. Some theologians speculate that the soul comes into being when the present body comes into being. This is not only illogical (how can something eternal have a beginning?) but unsupported by scripture.

The Vedic scriptures further state, vasanti yatra purushah sarve vaikuntha-murtayah: “In the spiritual planets everyone lives in bodies featured like the Supreme Personality of Godhead’s.”

So if in our original condition we were eternal beings living in the spiritual world, in spiritual bodies like God’s, then what happened to us? What are we doing here. subject to birth and death?

An obvious question and a good one. Lord Krishna tells us in Bhagavad-gita (7.27).

iccha-dvesha-samutthena
dvandva-mohena bharata
sarva-bhutani sammoham
sarge yanti parantapa

“O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.”

So one component of the reason for our being in the material world rather than the spiritual world, our real home, is that at some point we developed a desire to enjoy separately from the Supreme Lord, Krishna. Instead of serving Him with love, we desired to serve our own false ego. Although Krishna knows we can never be satisfied without serving Him in our natural position. He nonetheless respects our independence and free will and allows us to act out our impulses to enjoy separately from Him in the material world.

A second component of the reason for our being in the material world is our hatred for, or envy of, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One aspect of envy is the desire to usurp the position of the envied person. For example, if one envies a wealthy person, one may desire to become the enjoyer of that person’s wealth. Similarly, the envious soul may desire to take the Lord’s position as the supreme enjoyer. This necessarily involves partial or total forgetfulness of God’s existence.

One thing to keep in mind is that no one can honestly say, “The devil made me do it” According to the Vedas, God has no competitor battling with Him for souls. God is described asamaurdhva, “having no equal or superior.” If we are apart from God, we can blame no one but ourselves, our own desire and hatred.

There is no irreversible, eternal condemnation. Each soul always has the opportunity to exercise its free will. If a soul is “eternally” condemned, it is only because of its own continuing unwillingness to love God. One can always turn back to God, even from the most fallen position. Srila Prabhupada explains:

The Supreme Personality of Godhead expanded Himself into many for His ever-increasing spiritual bliss, and the living entities are parts and parcels of this spiritual bliss. They also have partial independence. but by misuse of their independence, when the service attitude is transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment, they come under the sway of lust. This material creation is created by the Lord to give facility to the conditioned souls to fulfill these lustful propensities, and when completely baffled by prolonged lustful activities, the living entities begin to inquire about their real position.

Although the Vedic literature doesn’t talk of Satan, or the devil, it does describe Maya, the goddess in charge of the material energy. Maya is a servant of Lord Krishna who performs the unpleasant but necessary task of creating the temporary world of illusory happiness and distress for the souls who desire to forget Krishna and enjoy themselves apart from Him. And if a soul somehow develops a desire to return to Krishna, Maya is always there to test him with allurements: “So you think you love God? Well what about this ... ? And this … ?”

So if that’s our position now, then what is to be done? The answer is simple. We should use our independence to reestablish a friendly relationship with the Supreme Lord, Krishna, and thus end our unpleasant stay in the material world. This is the most important business of human existence.

We should choose to make ourselves pleasing to God. And everyone has an equal opportunity to do that. It is not that any particular group of people has a monopoly on salvation.

Every soul has the opportunity to achieve the highest goal. pure love for God. In his introduction to Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Srila Prabhupada explains, “The ways and the means for ultimate realization, ultimate attainment, are stated in the Bhagavad-gita, and the doors of this knowledge are open for everyone. No one is barred out. All classes of men can approach Lord Krishna by thinking of Him, for hearing and thinking of Him are possible for everyone.”

Lord Krishna Himself says in the Gita (9.32), “Those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth … can attain the supreme destination.” It doesn’t matter if one is male or female, higher or lower in social status.

The real chosen people are those who choose to endear themselves to God by their behavior. And in the Bhagavad- gita (12.20) Lord Krishna explains who is dear to Him: “Those who follow this imperishable path of devotional service and who completely engage themselves with faith, making Me the supreme goal, are very, very dear to Me.”

The imperishable path of devotional service begins with hearing and chanting the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Lord Caitanya taught the simple method of awakening love of God through the congregational chanting of His holy names: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

Lord Caitanya was Krishna Himself, appearing as a devotee of Krishna. In other words, He was God showing by His own example how to please God.

Lord Caitanya prayed, “O son of Maharaja Nanda [Krishna], I am Your eternal servitor, yet somehow or other I have fallen into the ocean of birth and death. Please pick me up from this ocean of death and place me as one of the atoms at Your lotus feet.”

When a devotee petitions Krishna in this way. Krishna responds. He says in Bhagavad-gita (12.6-7): “Those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Pritha—for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death.”

One can best meditate upon Krishna and fix one’s mind upon Him by chanting His holy names. In this way one can escape the cycle of birth and death and become situated at Krishna’s lotus feet Lord Caitanya prayed:

O my Lord, Your holy names alone can render all benedictions to living beings, and thus you have hundreds and millions of names, like Krishna and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.

Here Lord Caitanya is revealing our problem. We are trapped in the material world because we misused our independence. Even so, Krishna has made it possible for us to return to our original position simply by chanting His holy names. The method is easy; even a child can perform it. And it is guaranteed to be effective. Yet we are so unfortunate that we are not attracted to chant. We remain reluctant, attracted to other things.

Still, Krishna is non-different from His name. And in the form of His name, He is waiting for us to choose to accept Him into our hearts once more. If we can do so, we shall also enter into Krishna’s heart. Krishna says in the Srimad- Bhagavatam (9.4.68).

The devotees are always in My heart, and I am always in the hearts of the devotees. The devotee does not know anything beyond Me, and I also cannot forget the devotee. There is a very intimate relationship between Me and the pure devotees. Pure devotees in full knowledge are never out of spiritual touch. and therefore they arc very much dear to Me.

So, although we are "choosing people," in a sense there are also chosen people—the devotees. Because they have chosen God, God has chosen them. And He guarantees that their destination will be His eternal, spiritual abode.

The search for happiness is natural, because it is the constitutional position of the spirit soul to be eternally joyful. But our search for happiness in the external, physical world is always frustrated; we look everywhere, never realizing permanent pleasure.

The musk deer, an animal native to Central Asia, gives us a hint to the solution of this predicament. The musk deer is famous for the scent produced from a glandular sac beneath the skin of the male’s abdomen. Not only is the reddish- brown secretion from this sac much sought after by human beings, who use it as a base for many perfumes, but according to the Vedic tradition, the musk deer himself sometimes goes mad over the powerful fragrance. In his madness he runs wildly about, looking everywhere for the intense scent. Everywhere, that is, except within himself.

Are you about to hear some facile pronouncement about “the happiness within”? Well, yes and no. Yes, the devotees of Krishna will tell you that by serving Krishna one feels happiness within—happiness independent of the fleeting pains and pleasures of the physical body. No, their statement is not facile; it is based on experience, and on a realized understanding of our spiritual identity.

Every living entity is a spirit soul—part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krishna—and entitled to the unlimited spiritual pleasure derived from satisfying Krishna’s transcendental senses. The temporary physical body is only a covering over the soul, just as a shirt or coat is only a covering over the body. In comparison to even a drop of the transcendental happiness of serving Lord Krishna, the greatest pleasures of the physical world appear meager.

We just instinctively follow the “scent” of happiness, but if that scent leads us to gratify our bodily senses, rather than to serve and please Lord Krishna, we have been fooled. Like the musk deer, we’ll search vainly in the external world, never experiencing the happiness within.

On October 3, 1972, psychologist Dr. Gerald Frazer visited His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada at ISKCON’s world headquarters, in Los Angeles. Their conversation follows.

Dr. Frazer: I am curious to know what you do when one of your students has a problem on the physical or emotional platform. Do you help that person over his problem by getting him to transcend it, by rising above it?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we speak only on the transcendental platform, not on the bodily or mental or intellectual platform. We recognize four platforms: the bodily or sensual platform; then, above that, the mental platform; above that, the intellectual platform; and above that, the spiritual platform.

First of all, our direct perception is on the sensual platform, by sense perception (indriyani parany ahuh). For example, now I am directly seeing your tape recorder—this is the sensual platform. But if you describe your tape recorder to me, then I see it on the mental platform. These two visions—sensual and mental—are different. And when an electronics expert thinks of how to improve the tape recorder, he is seeing on the intellectual platform. That is another vision. So, even in the material realm, there are three visions, three platforms: sensual, mental, and intellectual. And above all these is the spiritual platform. On this platform is the soul, who experiences the world through the material senses, mind, and intelligence.

So, we speak on the spiritual platform. We know that if someone is spiritually sound, then he will be intellectually, mentally, and physically sound as well. That is our proposition. When you have one hundred dollars, then you also have fifty dollars, twenty-five dollars, and ten dollars. So, we train our students spiritually. For spiritual understanding, they have to rise early in the morning, they have to take a bath, they can eat only krishna-prasada [vegetarian foods offered to Lord Krishna], and they refrain from certain things. In this way, their physical and hygienic problems are automatically solved. We don’t spend very much in doctor’s bills. In the last seven years, I have not had one doctor’s bill. And most of our students are not troubled by physical disease.

Good health actually depends on the presence of the spirit soul within the body. Within your body is you, the spirit soul. And because the spirit soul is there, your body looks healthy. But as soon as the spirit soul is gone from your body, your body will immediately begin to decompose. This is the distinction between a living body and a dead body. When the spirit soul is within a body, it is called a living body, and as soon as the spirit soul is not there, it is called a dead body. Therefore, you should always keep yourself spiritually fit. Then you will keep mentally, intellectually, and physically fit.

Now, as far as the spirit soul is concerned, do you have any conception of it?

Dr. Frazer: Some conception.

Srila Prabhupada: And what is that?

Dr. Frazer: My words cannot describe it very well. It is the inexpressible, ineffable essence of both me and you.

Srila Prabhupada: No, that is not an explanation. That is a negation. Unless we actually perceive and know the spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual knowledge.

Dr. Frazer: When you talk about the spirit soul, you seem to refer to that part of me I feel most when I am not using my physical senses.

Srila Prabhupada: Your physical senses are working due to the presence of the spirit soul. You are moving your hand because the spirit soul is within you. And as soon as the spirit soul is gone from your body, your body becomes simply a lump of matter.

Dr. Frazer: So, matter is separate from the spirit soul?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The soul is the vital force, the moving force, that is in you, that is in me, that is in the ant, that is in the elephant, that is everywhere.

Dr. Frazer: Is it in our bodies after we are dead?

Srila Prabhupada: Death means you are gone from your body. But other spirit souls are there in your body in so many germs, parasites, and so on. There are innumerable individual spirit souls in your body.

Dr. Frazer: Individual spirit souls?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You are an individual, I am an individual, everyone is an individual

Dr. Frazer: And what is there about all spirit souls that is the same?

Srila Prabhupada: The quality is the same. Just as (since you are a human being and I am a human being) you have two hands and I have two hands, you have two legs and I have two legs, and so on. But still, you and I are different. That is individuality. Understanding that is Krishna consciousness.

Dr. Frazer: What happens when someone comes to you, and he is caught up in a problem in, say, the physical or mental plane, and he can’t understand the spiritual plane. Do you tie him into the spiritual plane so that he can transcend his problem?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the purpose of the Krishna consciousness movement. If someone comes to the Krishna conscious platform, then he has no more problems, either physical, mental, or intellectual.

Dr. Frazer: What I am especially curious about is how you bring someone to Krishna consciousness when he approaches you. Do you have a healing process?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just as you heal by some psychiatric process, so we also heal by this Krishna consciousness.

Dr. Frazer: Could you say a bit about that process?

Srila Prabhupada: It is the chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra. This chanting is just like the process for curing snakebite. Have you seen snake charmers in India? We have them there still. If someone is bitten by a snake and is lying unconscious, the snake charmer can gradually awaken him by chanting a certain mantra. This is a material process. Similarly, we are spirit souls, and everyone of us is either psychologically or physically diseased. So, by this chanting of Hare Krishna we awaken the consciousness that cures all our physical, mental, and intellectual diseases.

Dr. Frazer: It would seem that someone would have to have a certain kind of mentality for the chanting to be of assistance.

Srila Prabhupada: No. We create the healthy mentality simply by chanting. We chant, and we ask him to join us in chanting. Then he is cured intellectually, mentally, and physically.

Dr. Frazer: There are many people who would not do that. They seek healing from other individuals and not from themselves—not from what they can achieve through internal concentration or chanting. They are not used to looking within.

Srila Prabhupada: Nevertheless, we have so many students who have been cured of all mental, physical, and intellectual problems simply by chanting. There are so many students. You can talk to any of them.

Dr. Frazer: After they’ve gone through the process to get to Krishna consciousness, do your students stay in the temple, or do they go out into the community and work at regular jobs?

Srila Prabhupada: Some of them do that. This student [gestures toward a devotee} is a doctor of chemistry. He is doing his job, but he is in Krishna consciousness. And there are many professors and many workers in our movement. One doesn’t have to live in the temple. No. He can live outside, but he keeps his Krishna consciousness. However, within the temple it is easier to remain Krishna conscious because of the association of devotees. Their association is an important influence.

Dr. Frazer: Do you teach control of the body?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. No meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex, no gambling. These are some of the no’s. And there are so many yeses. "Do’s" and "do nots"; that is control of the body. Our students do not go to the cinema or restaurants. They do not even smoke, drink tea or coffee—nothing. We have no such expenditures, and almost no doctor’s bills.

Dr. Frazer: You said no illicit sex. What is permissible sex?

Srila Prabhupada: Permissible sex means, first of all, sex only with one’s wife. One must be married, and with his wife he can have sex once in a month after the menstrual period. And when his wife is pregnant, no more sex life. This is permissible sex.

Dr. Frazer: Do you impose any punishment for illicit sex?

Srila Prabhupada: Punishment will be there automatically, by nature’s way. As soon as you violate nature’s law, you will be punished. Suppose you are eating. If you eat a little more than you need, you will be punished. That is nature’s law. If you have too much sex, then you become impotent. That is nature’s punishment for too much sex indulgence. And if you indulge in all these prohibited things—illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling—then you will never understand spiritual consciousness. That is the greatest punishment. If you do not understand spiritual life, you remain like an animal, in ignorance. So, in spite of getting the chance of a human body, if we remain like animals, is this not the greatest punishment?

Dr. Frazer: I suppose it is, but how can we end this ignorance?

Srila Prabhupada: As soon as you understand God, then your knowledge is perfect. If you do not understand God, then your knowledge is imperfect. The animals cannot be educated about God, but human beings can. Therefore, there are so many scriptures in the human society. But if you don’t take advantage of this human life to understand God, then you remain an animal.

Dr. Frazer: Have you seen people who have understood God, who have been Krishna conscious, but who have regressed back to the bodily, mental, or intellectual platforms?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Just as you may be cured of a disease but again become infected and have a relapse, so you may also become Krishna conscious but again fall down into material life. But if you always keep yourself spiritually fit, then there is no chance of downfall.

Dr. Frazer: Could you tell me what the essence of Krishna consciousness is?

Srila Prabhupada: To understand God.

Dr. Frazer: To understand God and to do what is most natural—to follow the natural laws?

Srila Prabhupada: The essence of Krishna consciousness is to know God and to love Him. That is our proposition. Human life is meant for understanding God and loving Him.

Dr. Frazer: I can easily follow what you are saying. Krishna consciousness seems to involve doing what’s most natural. Overeating, overindulging in sex, overdoing anything is not natural.

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, the basic principle of understanding is that you are a spirit soul—you are not your body. But because you have accepted a body, you have to suffer so many bodily troubles. All our troubles are due to this material body. Therefore, this material body itself is our problem.

Dr. Frazer: Since, as you mentioned before, the spirit soul and the body are always different, does the perfectly realized soul feel physical distress? In other words, can someone in Krishna consciousness get a physical disease?

Srila Prabhupada: The body is subject to physical disease. How can I avoid it? But if I do not identify with my body, then the disease will not bother me. For example, suppose two men are sitting in a very nice car. Somehow or other the car is damaged. The man who possesses the car is afflicted, but the other man is not, although they are both sitting in the same car. Why is this? Can you explain this psychologically? The owner is afflicted—he is concerned—but his friend is not concerned. What is the cause of the owner’s distress?

Dr. Frazer: His possession.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The owner is absorbed in possession: “Oh, my car is ruined!” But because the friend has no sense of possession, he is not affected. In the same way, the body is different from the soul, and when you come to the consciousness of not possessing your body, then there is no trouble.

Dr. Frazer: So, someone in Krishna consciousness may come down with a bodily illness, but he won’t be afflicted by it spiritually?

Srila Prabhupada: No, he won’t be afflicted. He is just like the man who is perfectly detached from his car: “All right, the car is damaged. I will lose some money, but it doesn’t matter.” But another man, who is very much absorbed in possession, thinks, “Oh, my car is damaged!” In the same way, one who is absorbed in bodily identification is more afflicted, and one who is not absorbed, who knows that he is not his body, is not afflicted. It is a question of consciousness. A Krishna conscious person may become diseased, but he simply says, “Oh, it comes and goes. It doesn’t matter. Let me do my duty. Hare Krishna.” This is the difference. It is a question of development of consciousness.

Dr. Frazer: What do you do when someone preoccupied with bad thoughts comes to you?

Srila Prabhupada: When someone is absorbed in thoughts of Krishna, there is no scope for bad thoughts. You can think of only one subject matter at a time, so if you are absorbed twenty-four hours a day in thoughts of Krishna, then there is no question of bad thoughts.

Dr. Frazer: If I understand you correctly, Krishna conscious people are cured of bad thoughts just by getting away from them—not by expressing the thoughts and getting away from them, but by not expressing the thoughts and getting away from them.

Srila Prabhupada: The process is like this: a man comes to our society with bad thoughts, but by chanting, chanting, chanting, he becomes relieved of these bad thoughts.

Dr. Frazer: He doesn’t talk about the bad thoughts to anyone?

Srila Prabhupada: He may talk or not talk; it doesn’t matter. But the bad thoughts go away.

Dr. Frazer: One thing I don’t quite understand. You and the people around you often seek to proselytize strangers, to involve new people. Why is that?

Srila Prabhupada: You also proselytize. When a madman goes to you, you turn him into a sane man. Is that not proselytizing?

Dr. Frazer: Yes, but he comes to me. Your people go out to other people.

Srila Prabhupada: So we are better friends to those who are suffering. You charge fees, but we canvass without any personal gain. Therefore, we are better friends than you.

Dr. Frazer: What if someone says no to you?

Srila Prabhupada: Then it is no. Suppose a fruit vendor is canvassing, “Here is a nice mango.” That does not mean everyone will buy. The mango is good. Because someone does not buy it, that does not mean the mango is bad. It is his misfortune that he did not buy the nice mango.

Dr. Frazer: I was just thinking of what you said about charging a fee. How else could professional people make a living?

Srila Prabhupada: Of course. You are a professional, but we are not professionals. We distribute our knowledge without demanding a personal salary. We distribute such an exalted thing—Krishna consciousness—without any desire for our own profit.

Dr. Frazer: Yet it seems to me that when a person joins you he gives you his time, he gives you his energy—

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, he gives everything. Take these devotees, for instance. They have given everything. Why do they give everything? We don’t charge anything. Do you think they are all fools to give everything for Krishna? What is your idea?

Dr. Frazer: They may do whatever they wish. They want to give everything.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. And that is natural—to give everything to Krishna. That is the sane condition. To withhold anything from Krishna is an insane condition. It is something like stealing from this temple. Suppose someone takes this box without my knowledge. He will be in tribulation: “Oh, I have taken this without Swamiji’s knowledge! What will he think?” But he is cured of all this trouble when he returns the box. Similarly, everything belongs to Krishna. Everything belongs to God. Nothing belongs to me, not even this body. Therefore, to offer everything to Krishna is the sane condition of life. So, when someone comes to Krishna consciousness, he returns every thing that he has received from Krishna. This is sanity. Everyone else is a thief, enjoying another's property and claiming it to be his. For example, take your country, the United States of America. Do you think it is actually your country? Two hundred years ago it did not belong to you; it belonged to the red Indians. Now you are claiming it to be your country. Why? After another two hundred years it might belong to others. So, why is it your country now? Similarly, God has given us this life, God has given us this body. God has given us this mind, God has given us everything. Therefore, everything belongs to God, and to come to this understanding is called Krishna consciousness.

Dr. Frazer: What about other philosophical studies—

Srila Prabhupada: Actually, by philosophical study we have to understand that everything belongs to God. That is the original philosophy: ishavasyam idam sarvam: “Everything belongs to God.” You, I, and everyone else belong to God, and since we are all children of God, we have the right to use God’s property—but not more than what we require. Now, you are God’s son, I am God’s son, and everything is God’s property. So, you may enjoy your father’s property, and I may enjoy it, but when you encroach on my property so that I starve, that is illegal. If we accept that everything belongs to God, and that we are all sons of God—every one of us, even animals, insects, birds, bees, trees—then we all have the right to use God’s property—but no more than what is required. That is God consciousness.

Dr. Frazer: Well, I certainly agree with that, but again, my own conflict is whether Krishna consciousness is the only consciousness for everyone.

Srila Prabhupada: Other consciousness is partial. Krishna consciousness is full. For instance, American national consciousness—that is partial. But when you speak of Krishna consciousness, that is complete.

Dr. Frazer: How is it more complete than Hinduism?

Srila Prabhupada: We are talking of God, not Hinduism or Christianity. God is for everyone. God is neither Hindu nor Christian; He is for everyone. Simply love God. It doesn’t matter whether you are Hindu or Christian or Muslim or whatever.

Dr. Frazer: Thank you for seeing me and talking with me.

Srila Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.